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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

#1: Close Combat in 3D Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:14 am
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I think it can be done, and work out great. Heres some screenshots of other MechCommander (1998, 3D'ish) and Mech Commander 2 (2006, 3D). Try and imagine you are looking at Close Combat.

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#2: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:38 pm
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That looks pretty good.

Or ... maybe it will look more like Rome Total War. The greatest war game every devised. 1 game (2 expansion sets). Apx 30 bucks in 2008.

If it wasn't for this game, I would have done a lot more to Modern Tactics.

The screenies are from my Alexander Magnus Mundus mod, which extracts Persia, India, and Macedon from the Alexander expansion, and integrates them into the Magnus Mundus world, where all the standard RTW barbarian factions await.

#3: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:12 am
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Here is a better pic of what I am thinking.

Close combat needs to move away from squad level, and goose up the number of participants in a battle.

Check out the pic, below, there are more than 7,000 soldiers in this battle. You can just see all the Macedonians, but you cant see all of the Persians.

Imagine this size of a battlefield for 3DCC. The incoming air strikes, artillery barrages, could really be awesome, if done correctly. With a wide screen prespective, you could direct and observe a tank battle in the valley, just as easily.

Its amazing, I have a very old system board (2001 vintage), but RTW (actually the ALX exe) runs these huge units no problem. Its a testament to the skill of the programmers at Creative Assembly.

#4: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: southern_land,

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:27 am
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TW medieval2 was better esp with the stainless steel 6.0 mod

#5: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:02 pm
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Perhaps,

I have the gold version of that game also. It cost 20 bucks as well. The graphics are better, but my system chops some when the soldier count gets too high.

But me thinks, it takes Magnus Mundus to get those outrageous battelfields like the one above.

When you do find something you really really enjoy, it is no longer a money issue. Its hobby money anyway.

I have added hundreds of custom locations that I figured out from the campaign region map, and to that I have added a similiar number of preset army lists.

For the most part, I have just used the system, as mods past transporting units from Alexander to my own mod, or installing Magnus Mundus, only took a few hours.

For my interests, this game beats all others by light years.

#6: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: lamurt,

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:03 pm
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3d generated objects still can't reach the image quality of a the sprites / maps of 2.5d

#7: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:56 pm
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lamurt wrote (View Post):

3d generated objects still can't reach the image quality of a the sprites / maps of 2.5d

I agree, and the generated maps will suffer as well. That is what keeps us playing Close Combat.

But CC will never match the intensity or animations of the TW stuff. It isn't supposed to.

Also, modding TW games is sooooo much easier than CC, with all its tools and nausea that go with them. Having to cutdown maps for Modern Tactics was a real drag.

Here is my best mod, Persia Magnus Mundus, which changes no graphics. It just uses the Magnus Mundus map, to create a campaign with the same start date as the original game. It just assumes that both Darius and Alexander were killed at Guagamela, and a new Persian coalition arrises in what would have become the Seleucid Empire.

The Pontus faction was used for the Persians, and the game is just too much fun. I like it when I can make a mod, just by changing a few lines in a text file.

#8: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:54 pm
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But apart from the 3d engine coming for CC. There is the new UI, that has been promised.

Sadly, no one involved in Close Combat development has every ranked the UI as a top priority, and in so doing, as time marches by, it becomes more dated. Never mind trying to mod the darn thing. What a total pain in the ass.

I really hope by the time the 3d game comes out, someone has decided to bring the UI into the present.

CA, in contrast, had these features worked out as early as 2002. It's great when you have a ton of programmers.

Screen pic is just showing non-native mode for widescreen monitors, which simply allows the desktop background (on the right) to remain in place.

Very simple (for back then), but nowdays CA completely utilizes widescreen graphics, not just for the 3d engine, but for the menus as well.

What will Close Combat do. I wonder?

#9: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:47 am
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And while we are the subject of 3d graphics for CC ...

What about the campaign map. Is it possible for Slitherene to use a 3d campaign map.

I am not going to hold my breath. Something like that would take a redo of campaign thinking and a whole new way of going about things.

They (Slitherene), left us with the impression the 3d game would be out about a year after Panters in the Fog.

But, no one is going to hold the CC team to the fire on anything. I know I am not.

Besides, when CA decided to go 3d on the campaign map, it solved a lot of issues normally associated with region to region movement. Not to mention it is just more fun, as armies can be ambushed and even destroyed by unseen (hiding enemies).

The screen pic shows my campaign game for Alexander Magnus Mundus. I think I had to touch just 2 dds files, to fix up the in game faction symbols, since mine were different than the original Alexander expansion.

The rest was just modding text files. Very simple. I wish CC could do something like that with their strat maps.

#10: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: caruso, Location: Livorno

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:11 pm
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Hi all!! I don't know what to say, i mean, for a right impression i should have to try a 3dcc if it would comes out one day, but at least, at the moment, i don't think that would be such a big resault!!

cheers

#11: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Nacrox,

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:15 am
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Still, even with all those impressive engine improvements, rome total war has a very poor AI, and the tactical decisions that you can make are by far very limited compared to what you could do.

Even in multiplayer with mods like Europa Barbarorum it feels a little arcadey.

#12: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:38 pm
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Yup,

You nailed it, the worst AI EVER Exclamation

This is what I use for Medieval stuff, since MTW2 lags on my sad old system. (Athelon 2000, Radeon 9600).

What is cool, is that you can modify even mods. Here I simply deleted about half a dozen vegitation and geography files and folders, and poof, I was back to the original environment provided by RTW. This allows me to have thousands of soldiers on the battlefield.

Note the inferior AI (English), mounted a heavy duty charge straight at moi (Normans). Laughing

... just too much fun.

Norman Invasion, plus Viking Invasion (both mods for RTW), sastisfy most of my dark ages and Medieval urges.

You just got to hope that CC 3d will not look too much like the pics mooxe posted above (no offense to mooxe). Idea

Last edited by Stwa on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:08 am; edited 1 time in total

#13: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:57 pm
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But most likely,

In CC 3d, we will get the top down view, (perhaps with panning), that we all know is vital for CC gaming. The 3d engine will solve LOS and gunfire issues. Plus it will cut down on all that disk space need for all those 2d maps. My CC mod folder is now over 13 GB. My RTW mod folder(s) come no where near that.

You just have to imagine NORMANDY INVASION. Perhaps each 100 man unit being a company or so. With 20 unit slots, maybe this could be 2 battalions. Idea

Of course, the troops would be spread out over a much larger space, and you just would not be able to monitor (or see) all the action simultaneously, but hey, big deal. Idea

When you consider that the RTW engine was mostly developed around 2002-2003, and subsequently improved with MTW2 around 2006, you gotta think back to what CC was up to at that time.

Anyway, maybe the best thing to do, is to beg the Lordz Studio to make a modern mod for the latest CA engine. Of course, they will never do that, because they would have to start over with all new 3d models.

#14: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:47 am
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Close Combat needs a new make over. Just looking at the PITF screenies on the home page (although very nice looking), reminds me that its still going to be the same ole game.

Perhaps Slitherene could approach CA, about using their 3d engine. Surely they could make some deal where they could license the mod that they finish.

Viking Invasion was made by the same modders (basically) that did Norman Invasion.

Hint: Use Single Player. Idea

... and massive amounts of soldiers. Idea

Tactics are pretty simp. When you see the enemy, just charge the entire army. The AI does the same. Laughing

#15: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: ScottP, Location: Illinois

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:00 am
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Hi all! I'm Scott Parrino, the Public Relations Manager for Slitherine/Matrix Games. Great to see an active community for Close Combat! This is a series that has a special place in my heart ever since downloading the Bridge Too Far demo on my 14.4 modem, waiting hours to download that 200mb MONSTER of a file!

I'm sure you all know that PITF will be the last 2D CC that will be coming out. No fear that it will be short-changed though, it's getting a bit of polish done to it, with new 32-bit graphics, troops and weapons that can mount to vehicles during the tactical battles, and of course the much-wanted integrated multiplayer lobby. I am sure it'll bring some new life into the series and keep everyone more than happy while we work on the eventual 3D Close Combat.

What sort of features and implementations are you guys interested in seeing for the 3D version? I'm sure everyone will be happy to be able get a better view on the LOS and LOF issues for their troops, that's one thing I remember trying to get a grasp of when I first started playing.

#16: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:10 am
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Hi Scott,

Nice of you to stop by and make inquiries.

My understanding of PITF, is new graphics (32 bit), new scales (vechicles, maps, etc.), and a new UI.

Of those features, the UI sounds the most appealing to me. I used to hope for a generic UI, that could be re-used by modders without having to change it, but I gave up on that, since it seems modders want to change it no matter what.

Clearly the 3d engine will make LOS and LOF much more precise, and I do think this will have a very positive effect on Close Combat gaming.

Apart from the "recommendations" I have been making in this thread, CC will benefit even if you merely provide the same top down view that you more or less get now with the 2D engine. Being able to pan down to ground level, allows you to see the spectacle in RTW games, but CC games probably won't provide the same level of excitement due to the nature of the combat alone.

If there is a map generator provided with the game (its a rumor me thinks), and credible nice looking maps can be produced and then used with the game you have purchased, I think you will have a great game on your hands.

It you allow 3d modellers to create and insert addon models into the game as well, (i.e. a easy to use or modify textual way to describe the created models to the game), then it might be possible that wannabe 3d modellers will start cranking out lots of cool stuff and uploading to sites like this one.

To what extent things might boom, is impossible to tell, but otherwise Slitherene would be making all the models, and offering them is subsequent releases, which might be the slowest way to get to everything.

I am not sure anyone can ressurect multiplayer, by any means or methods. But I am not in the business. Multiplayer means you must have time on your hands, and that usually means being a student or unemployed or both. But perhaps your marketing data says otherwise.

Multiplayer seems to work with games where you can dictate the intensity level, like first person shooters, where you control and infantryman or a tank. In those arenas, you can always find a place to hide, and go to the kitchen or take a smoke break, or whatever. You probably won't be missed even if you log out and then log back in.

But with CC there are just two players, and you might be invloved in 30-45 minute streteches that might not let you multitask (like taking a leak) while you play. And then if there is going to be scoring and ladders and stuff, if there are not just jillions of players, everyone will know how badly you suck at the game. That is mainly why I don't do multiplayer. Laughing

With this type of game multiplayer (ladders) just stifles creativity (IMHO), and for the longest time the host usually had specific advantages that just took forever to code out of the game.

Anyway, thanks again for the inquiries.

#17: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:53 pm
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Stwa,

no need to develope something new as there was CC in 3d called GI Combat (E.Young (Routins om matrix) - CC creator) and WF Squad Assault (E.Young (Routins on matrix) - CC creator).

Didn't work well as there was no H2H GC.

#18: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:23 pm
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Hi Dima,

So what your are saying is that the absense of multiplayer ruined it for many people.

I am not saying you are wrong, but if there is not enough for a single player to do with the game, I can easily see how your comments would be dead on.

Ageod's Birth of America was like that. The only way to have a memorable gaming experience was to play other humans.

Plus, I am surprised, no one wants to comment back to the Public Relations dood.

I am guessing, CA does not have the rights to even the RTW engine, maybe SEGA does. But just looking at the images, and the environmental possibilities, I for one can easily imagine tanks instead of chariots, artillery instead of seige engines, and light infantry instead of archers. Of course animations would all have to be different.

CA just wont do a modern game. To bad. But maybe Slitherene can work something out.

#19: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:29 pm
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Here is the text of an old post from the Matrix site, that I posted sometime in 2005. It was meant for WITP, but it will work with most any MULTIPLAYER strategy game. You can use this to help calculate the actual duration of any sceneario or campaign.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scenario duration calculator

g = number of game turns as stated in the scenario editor for a given scenario.

t = turn-around time in minutes, or the average time it takes to play 1 complete turn (for all players) and takes into account all posssible delays, except sleep.

s = sleep time in minutes, or the average amount of time any player will sleep each calander day.

d = a calander day expressed as total minutes or normally 1440 minutes.

dm = duration of a game in minutes.

dd = duration of a game in days.

dy = duration of a game in years.

therefore:

dm = ((g * t) / (d - s)) * d

dd = dm / d ...

dy = dd / 365.25

example 1:

Bert and Ernie decide to play WitP scenario 15 by mail. The game lasts the maximum number of turns the scenario will allow.

Each turn took 30 minutes to complete on average. During the game Bert and Ernie sleep about 8 hours a day. How many days elapsed while Bert and Ernie were playing the game?

dm = ((1576 * 30) / (1440 - 480)) * 1440

dm = 70920

dd = 70920 / 1440

dd = 49.25

example 2:

Ralph and Fred decide to play WitP scenario 15 by mail. They agree to do 1 turn per day in the evening after work. Both Ralph and Fred sleep 6 hours a day on average. How many years elapsed while Ralph and Fred were playing the game?

dm = ((1576 * 1080) / (1440 - 360)) * 1440

dm = 2269440

dd = 2269440 / 1440

dd = 1576

dy = 1576 / 365.25

dy = 4.31

#20: Re: Close Combat in 3D Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:47 am
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WoW

I'm so impressed with your skills stwa

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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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